Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V10_0/V10_086.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V10 #86

SPACE Digest                                      Volume 10 : Issue 86

Today's Topics:
            Re: Re: Saturn V & F-1
            Re: Edgar Rice Quayle on Mars.
            Re: Re: Saturn V & F-1
         Re: Voting via taxes & other 3&*%^#
               Re: VOYAGER 1 and Pluto.
      Re: List of Hurricane Hugo GIF Images on SIMTEL20
       Update on Atlas Centaur-68/FltSatCom launch (Forwarded)
     The Space Story --  four weekly programs (Forwarded)
      Re: Stop using "Economies of Scale for Launchers"
            Re: Edgar Rice Quayle on Mars.
           Magellan Status for 09/19/89 (Forwarded)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 89 22:14:02 GMT
From: hpda!hpcuhb!hpcllla!hpclove![e-mail]  (Bob Campbell)
Subject: Re: Re: Saturn V & F-1

>>The problems I see with rebuilding the Saturn V are:

>>1:  No job for it.
>>    Face it.  If we needed them we would have kept building them. ...

>This verges on circular reasoning.  Was it right, or wrong, for the
>space program to peter out after the Apollo challenge was met?  If we
>wanted to keep our momentum, to keep expanding with Apollo Applications,
>the orbiting laboratories, more lunar landings and an eventual base, we
>needed the Saturn V.  When we decided to shift the emphasis from can-do
>to make-do, when the primary mission became how to dismantle a working
>program with a maximum of face saving and a minimum of boat rocking, we
>no longer needed them so they weren't built.  That doesn't mean there's
>no job for the Saturn V, it means the USG lacks the political will to
>tackle it.

I can think of plenty of things to do with a Saturn V.  What I meant
by my statement is the Kelly Johnson/Thomas Edison philosophy of "Get
the money first."  Get a job with real support so that congress will
pay for it.

>>2.  Missing knowledge and tools
>>    Like they said, it will take a bit of work to try and rebuild it.
>>    Without a strong commitment (see #1) it isn't going to happen.

>As our ex-S5 engineer poster suggested last week, they ain't dead yet.
>I bet *anything* it would be cheaper to reconstruct a rocket from what
>they know than it would be to design a new one from scratch.

Reverse engineering ain't always cheap.  I agree that regardless we
should be learning all we can for the older engineers, cause it all
isn't in the text books.  I never meant to say that it would be
cheaper to build a Saturn V from scratch, just that it might not
be quicker.

>>3.  If we need to redesign anyways . . .
>>
>>    Without the advantages of existing designs and production
>>    facilities, why not try to build it better?  ...

>This is of course the NASA answer too.  Only by rethinking and gold
>plating everything can we support endless new contractor studies, which
>are an industry in themselves these days.  Meanwhile the Soviets
>outlaunch us 20 to 1 using 20 year old boosters.  What's wrong with this
>picture!

I have no trouble with a simple booster design.  If you want a simple
design, go with solids that are not man-rated (not to belittle the
engineering of solids)  Fact is *some* improvements are possible,
different materials are availible.  I just don't see anyone ready
to spend the bucks.

> We're in Catch-22.  Nobody (Western) can afford to orbit the bulk
> hardware needed to get anything really major going in space, precisely
> *because* we mothballed the Saturn instead of reaping the long term
> dividends of its (very expensive) design.  Therefore industry is scared
> of space and there's no market for a new Saturn.

You will get no arguments that the mistake was to shut down the
assembly lines to begin with.  Notice I am working for a computer
company with an AAE degree . . .  (Yes, I like HP!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
[e-mail]        talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 89 15:05:32 GMT
From: bungia!orbit!pnet51![e-mail]  (S Schaper)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Quayle on Mars.

I agree with Kendall Auel completely, save that I think that this is what
Quayle actually meant. He is getting quite reknowned for tips o' the slongue.
If the Columbian drug barons get their wish, I hope the Sovietskaya will thake
take that into consideration when conversion with the new Pres..... (!)....

UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, uunet!rosevax, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!schaper
ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51![e-mail]
INET: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 89 18:55:29 GMT
From: hpda!hpcuhb!hpcllla!hpclove![e-mail]  (Bob Campbell)
Subject: Re: Re: Saturn V & F-1

>>3.  If we need to redesign anyways . . .

>>    Without the advantages of existing designs and production
>>    facilities, why not try to build it better?  It possibly
>>    could prove cheaper than a redesign and give a better
>>    engine (and better engineers!)

>"Better is the enemy of good enough."

>We don't want "state of the art. We want tried and true!

Which is the point.  A reengineered Saturn V is not a "Tried and true"
system and doesn't just get stuck on the pad and launched.  If we
had the lines intact, great.  BUT WE DON'T!

These technical problems can be solved.  GET THE MONEY FIRST!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
[e-mail]        talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 89 06:57:00 GMT
From: m.cs.uiuc.edu!bucc2![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Voting via taxes & other 3&*%^#



I really hate to say this, but he's right & yet he's wrong.
Some people _are_ too dumb to vote. But there's no reason to be so harsh        about it. I support a version of elitism that has no economic or social
requirement, only one in the intellectual side: you can tell what's wrong
with the nation & have a feasible solution to solve it. Also,
no dogmatists allowed-i.e. no evangelicals, because in their case,
mind is submissive to religious fervor & claptrap. Good luck all!

------------------------------

Date: 17 Sep 89 23:24:20 GMT
From: jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!attcan!ncrcan!ziebmef![e-mail]  (Matthew Francey)
Subject: Re: VOYAGER 1 and Pluto.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:
> So would a Voyager picture of Pluto be better than an Earth based picture?

  Probably not:  At 300e6km, Pluto/Charon may extend a pixel or two in size
in V1's narrow angle camera.  Perhaps V1 is closer though...  Does anyone
have the elements of V1's (or even V2's) orbit?
--
Name: Matthew Francey             Address: N43o34'13.5" W79o34'33.3" 86m
[e-mail]                uunet!{utgpu!moore,attcan!telly}!ziebmef!mdf

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 89 15:05:06 GMT
From: bungia!orbit!pnet51![e-mail]  (S Schaper)
Subject: Re: List of Hurricane Hugo GIF Images on SIMTEL20


   I am very interested in getting some of these pictures, and also JPL shots,
such as from the recent Neptune/Triton flyby. I am into Image Processing
Planetary Geology as well as Astronomy.
  However People's Net 51 does not have ftp access, as it is only a mail
system.
  Does anyone have or know of a node here in the Minneapolis/St.Paul area that
I could log into via modem and access these files?
   I appologize for not knowing how to limit posting to the tri-state area
yet. I would have to read about 400 messages and maybe still not find out.
   If anyone wants to tell me how to do that as well, please go ahead. E-mail
is fine if you don't want to use up bandwidth - esp on the last one.
  I use an Atari ST w one meg and the AIM image processor from the Delft
Institute of Technology in the Nederlands. If anyone has any conversion prgs
that could take the JPL and postscript formats and convert them to Amiga .IFF,
Macintosh screen dump, Degas, Spectrum 512 or even GIF I would *really* like
to have that.
  The AIM prg is PD so if anyone wants a copy e-mail me.

UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, uunet!rosevax, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!schaper
ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51![e-mail]
INET: [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 89 00:27:41 GMT
From: trident.arc.nasa.gov![e-mail]  (Peter E. Yee)
Subject: Update on Atlas Centaur-68/FltSatCom launch (Forwarded)

Jim Cast
Headquarters, Washington, D.C.                 September 20, 1989

George H. Diller
Kennedy Space Center, Fla.


N89-66

NOTE TO EDITORS:  UPDATE ON ATLAS CENTAUR-68/FLTSATCOM LAUNCH


     NASA has decided to resume launch preparations for the
FltSatCom Navy communications satellite.  The Atlas Centaur
rocket, AC-68, is now scheduled to lift off from Launch Complex
36 on Monday, Sept. 25, at the opening of a launch window that
extends from 4:12 a.m. to 4:42 a.m. EDT.

     Air Force and National Hurricane Center weather forecasters
have provided a cautiously optimistic forecast about the effects
of Hurricane Hugo on the Cape Canaveral area.  Plans are in place
to cease launch preparations and take appropriate precautions
should the weather picture change.

     The pre-launch news conference for AC-68 is scheduled for
11:30 a.m. EDT on Friday, Sept. 22.  The briefing will be carried
by NASA Select television on Satcom F2-R, transponder 13.  Audio
only is also available on the V-2 circuits, which may be dialed
directly at 407/867-1220, -1240 or -1260.

     News media representatives wishing to attend the briefing
should be at the KSC News Center by 10:45 a.m. for transportation
to the E&O building on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.  Those
needing accreditation should call the KSC News Center at XXX/YYY-
ZZZZ to arrange for badging.

     Remote camera set-up for launch will be on Sunday, Sept.
24.  Transportation to the pad will leave the KSC News Center at
4 p.m. EDT.

     On launch day, media representatives covering the launch may
obtain badging at the Gate 1 Pass and Identification Building on
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station from 2:45 a.m. until 3:15 a.m.
EDT.  All media then will be escorted to Press Site 1 on Cape
Canaveral Air Force Station.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 89 00:30:45 GMT
From: trident.arc.nasa.gov![e-mail]  (Peter E. Yee)
Subject: The Space Story --  four weekly programs (Forwarded)

The next series of radio programs will be broadcast on NASA Select,
Monday, September 25 at 1:00 PM Eastern.  The stories will
include:

THE SPACE STORY
FOUR WEEKLY PROGRAMS   4 MINS., 30 SEC. EACH

#1344  The "Big Picture" on Global Change
(Feat:  Astronaut Kathy Sullivan)
USE:  09/25/89 THRU 10/01/89

#1345  RX for Better Medicine
(Feat:  Dan Carter, MSFC)
USE:  10/02/89 THRU 10/08/89

#1346  Galileo, By Jove!
(Feat:  Torrence Johnson, JPL)
USE:  10/09/89 THRU 10/15/89

#1347  LAGEOS - Get the Drift?
(Feat:  David Smith, GSFC)
USE:  10/16/89 THRU 10/22/89

SIDE TWO:  FRONTIERS
FOUR 90 SECOND VERSIONS OF THE SPACE STORY

(NASA Select on SATCOM F-2R, transponder 13, C-Band, 72 degrees
West longitude)

------------------------------

Date: 19 Sep 89 19:00:23 GMT
From: hpda!hpcuhb!hpcllla!hpclove![e-mail]  (Bob Campbell)
Subject: Re: Stop using "Economies of Scale for Launchers"

> I have just read the upteenth article titled "Economies of Scale
> for Launchers" which is not about economics or mass production,
> but technical discussion on rocket propulsion.  Can't writers use
> a more appropriate title?  (Or am I being difficult?)

What you have observed is a case of basenote drift.  The original
note may be firmly on one topic, but the responses will lead to
another topic if the string gets long enough.  If the original
note expires, the responses to the note begin to look odd.

And yes, when the discussion starts getting into a different topic
a new basenote should be started for it.  But . . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
[e-mail]        talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

------------------------------

Date: 20 Sep 89 20:36:23 GMT
From: hercules!joyce!apptek11![e-mail]  (Alan Algustyniak)
Subject: Re: Edgar Rice Quayle on Mars.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kelton Flinn) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (N = R*fgfpneflfifaL) writes:
>>     Vice President Dan Quayle, explained why the
>>     United States should undertake a manned mission to Mars:  "Mars is
>>     essentially in the same orbit.  Mars is somewhat the same distance
>>     from the Sun, which is very important.  We have seen pictures where
>>     there are canals, we believe, and water.  If there is water, there is
>>     oxygen.  If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
>
>  I saw this clip on CNN, and was woefully embarrassed for the Vice
> President. Then the CNN reporter came on and said something to the
> effect of "The Vice President is displaying his misunderstanding of
> science here, everyone knows that Mars has no atmosphere."
> . . .  The reporter was not on camera, required to
> answer a question on the spot, they have all the time they need to
> get it right. Harumph!
>  Kelton Flinn

I saw it too, and had the same reaction.  I remember, tho, that the narrator
said:

    "Most scientists believe that Mars doesn't *have* an atmosphere!"

            --CNN News narrator trying to stick it to D. Quale


A couple of days later, there was another piece on an int'l group who are in
the Midwest,  apparently to learn more about how land surface conditions
(e.g. hugh tracts of soybeans) affect the local weather.  The narrator said
that they were there in order to:

    "learn how the planets affect the weather."

            --CNN Newsreader explaining science to his listeners

I called CNN about the pieces.  I could feel the blank stare the woman
the listening must have had on her face.   W.r.t. the last piece, I tried
to get thru to her by emphasizing "Only an *astrologer* would say that
planets affect the weather."  Her reply?

        "No, you mean *astronomer* !"


It's hard to get anywhere when the inmates are running the asylum.

    Alan

------------------------------

Date: 21 Sep 89 00:25:40 GMT
From: trident.arc.nasa.gov![e-mail]  (Peter E. Yee)
Subject: Magellan Status for 09/19/89 (Forwarded)


                     Magellan Weekly Status
                         Sept. 19, 1989


          This is a weekly Magellan status report.  Spurious
interrupts were experienced on four of the seven daily attitude
update star calibrations (Starcals) performed last week.  Three
of the four Star Scanner Unit calibrations also experienced
spurious interrupts.  All reaction wheel desaturations were
nominal.

          On Sept. 13, the spacecraft was maneuvered from Medium
Gain Antenna (MGA)-to-Earth to High Gain Antenna (HGA)-to-Earth
attitude to playback Starcal data so that analysts can
investigate Star Scanner Unit magnitude telemetry  to gain
additional insight into the spurious interrupt problem.

          The spacecraft continued to cool slightly after the
MGA offpoint maneuver at the beginning of the cruise 10 load.
The solar panel offpoint rotation test for 4.5 hours was
accomplished on Sept. 15 to reduce the energy passed
through the shunting system.  First indications are that this
did have some effect on several components.

          The Attitude and Articulation Control Subsystem
(AACS) memories were partially read out on Sept. 14 and
memory verification was accomplished on Sept. 15.


     Spacecraft
     Distance from Earth (mi)                42,763,074

     Velocity Geocentric                     41,118 mph
              Heliocentric                   84,435 mph

     One Way Light Time                      3 mins, 54 sec

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V10 #86
*******************